Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Most dogs can serve their role as mankind's best friend just fine, but only a few elite best of the best can substitute for our eyesight. Thankfully, there are heroes dedicated to finding, raising, and training them.
Welcome to the defending Vision podcast, where this blind man shows you exactly how he sees it. Hardship, humor, and keeping a vision alive. Throw on some headphones for the full audio experience.
Welcome back to the show. I am Matthew Cooper, and today we continue our very informative conversation with Natalie Ergler and Sydney Fujishiga from Guide Dogs of tender loving canines. If you missed part one, I highly recommend you go back and give it a listen as well.
Welcome to the conversation.
All right, so now I guess kind of two questions here. So what is the overall success rate as far as dogs getting through the guide dog program? And I suppose since GDA does service dogs as well, and then what are the most common reasons that they, they don't complete? So whether that's as a puppy or in training.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: I would say.
I would say overall colony average, we're looking at 45 ish percent.
Some litters they do stellar, and we're looking at 70, 80% of them graduate. But then we also have other litters that maybe only one graduates. So it kind of cancels out. So overall, I would say we're probably close to a 45% success rate. Both guide and service dogs together, and then usually 10% become breeders on top of that.
So we are looking at between 30 and 40% that don't make careers.
And I would say our biggest one currently would be body sensitivity on the temperament side and then on our medical side, it kind of goes back and forth, but I would go with eyes. Right now we have a couple cataracts that have happened.
Our orthopedic issues, when I first started here, they were close to 20, 30% that we were career changing for just elbows and hips. We're down to about, I would say two to 3%. We get a handful here and there, but it doesn't happen too, too often anymore.
But I would say eyes on the medical side.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Giving people a percentage like 45 is a good answer of why not, why their pet isn't necessarily a good fit if you're working that hard to optimize and you're still at 45%.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, I know a school that used rescues, and out of the rescues about, they were at a 6% success for a while.
They finally got their training programs going and they got up to 12% with rescues, and they just up started their breeding program in 2020.
Now they're up to about 25% success.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: So they are making strides. But that goes to show you, like, you can't just pull any dog out, right, and think that it's gonna make it.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: Now, how do you make the decision? Because I would think if you're selecting out the percentage of dogs to be breeders, you're probably picking dogs that would also make really good guides. So how is that kind of figured out?
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Yeah, so it's difficult, definitely, because I'm making those decisions prior to going into formal training.
And so I have a database, and it's called IWDR database. It's the international working dog registry database.
And it was founded by Jane Resenberger, who is a breeding manager for guiding Eyes for the blind, and Eldon Layton, who also was a breeding manager for the seeing eye.
And they have really put together this database and it hones in on traits, really, it gives us estimated breeding values on these traits. So, like, harness sensitivity, for example, if I'm struggling with it, I can pinpoint puppies in training that are ranking higher in the harness sensitivity than the others, and I can pull those dogs knowing, hey, I'm struggling with body and harness sensitivity, and I need these dogs to help us.
It's kind of a balancing act because a lot of the time there's no perfect dog. There's never been a perfect dog. So we have several that rank really high in harness sensitivity, but they rank lower in, like, elbow dysplasia. So it's definitely a balancing act where I've got to say, okay, I'm going to pull this dog because it's really high in harness sensitivity. Breed it to another dog that is really high in elbow dysplasia to make sure that we try and get the best of both worlds.
So that's kind of how it's all put together.
And I would say, because we do both guide and service dogs, I also am looking at that because if we've got to put dogs into guide work, but we've got to put dogs into service work. A guide dog, if you ever watch our graduations, I love it because the guide dogs get up there and they're sniffing and they're doing this and they're doing that, and the handlers are like, no, no, no. But then you watch the service dogs, and service dogs are sitting and just, oh, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? What do you want? I'll do whatever you want.
And so they're very different. And I can tell you like, when we're breeding dogs, sometimes I'm like, you know what? This litter is probably going to be more on the guide dog side versus the service dog side.
And so we're kind of just balancing everything and trying to make it work for everyone, if that makes sense.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:42] Speaker C: And if I may add, too, like, Natalie was talking about how she's breeding for drive for our guide dogs. Right. In the service dog side, they don't want a drive.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:53] Speaker C: Energetic dog. Because we have these. Some of these dogs are going to children with autism. So you don't want a dog that has so much drive going for this four year old child. Right. You want some. A dog that's going to be more settled, more calm, low key.
So, yeah, for Natalie, it is that balancing act of having a little bit of both for each.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Interesting. Okay, sure. So what about in training, Sydney?
What kind of things do you run into that are the most likely to sort of say, this dog isn't gonna. Is change of career?
[00:07:28] Speaker C: I would say the traffic aspect of it is kind of a big one because, like I said, it's a lot of independent thinking. So when we have a client who is like, yeah, my o and m skills are pretty good, you know, I think it's good to go. And we're constantly just pushing them and having them make those decisions, especially when it comes to traffic, it can kind of be a little bit more overwhelming for some of our dogs who have to be like, oh, crap, okay, this isn't right. This. No, I can't listen to mom. That's not right. And then on the other side of it, oh, okay. No, mom is right. We have to listen sometimes. For some dogs, it's not enough black and white for them that they're not. They're not able to think for some of them, too. It's. We thought that they would be good for this guide dog track, and maybe they're just a little bit too soft and sensitive, that the world is too much for them. So they need a little bit more help, a little bit more training. That's nothing so intense in the independent side. So they, you know, they still have a successful career as a service dog, so there's still that opportunity to get switched over.
And there's also the other spectrum where we get dogs who are too overly exuberant and they're just not able to think in a way that's productive and safe for our clients.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: Now, I suppose the trade off that you then run into is you have such a range of handlers, right? And some need the more excited dog and others need the less excited dog. Yes.
It's a broad range, but they can be too mellow or too excited.
[00:09:15] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. And it's also, we have to think about what, you know, I am a guide dog trainer, but if it's taking me with perfect timing, perfect everything, to manage this dog, we have to realize our, our clients, they're not guide dog trainers. You know, they're not going to have that perfect timing. So is it something that's going to be manageable for this client with. With this amount of speed or slowness? Right. We just have to think about that aspect, and that's kind of what determines if they're going to be able to make it or not.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Sure. So it's kind of been mentioned a little bit, but I, you know, there are quite a few schools for both guide and service dogs.
Is there a lot of working together, whether that be breeding training techniques, that kind of thing?
[00:10:12] Speaker B: Yes. So for the breeding portion, you know, we breed anywhere from about 150 to maybe 175 pups a year here at guide dogs. And I would say that we're considered a medium sized school, believe it or not.
But if you look at that, and if the average litter size is about eight, you divide that by eight and 150 is 19 litters.
However, what you can run into is half siblings. You can run into cousins, you can run into full siblings, too. And you have an inbreeding coefficient that then creeps up, which then also impacts your medical stuff, like hips and elbows. It also impacts temperament. Believe it or not, we've noticed that our higher inbreeding dogs tend to have less desirable temperaments.
So in order to keep that from creeping up, we have to provide stud service to another school. So we might give them stud service, and we'll get a puppy back in return. And so half that pedigree is outside genetic lines.
Or we might do something like, I've bred a dog once here, and I sent her off to another school, and she actually gave birth at the other school. And we did a havesies thing where I took half the litter back and they got to keep half the litter for spending the time and the energy actually whelping that litter and then also raising them until they're eight weeks of age.
There's also a breeding co op that we are a part of, and our biggest role within that breeding co op is the stud service and then also getting puppies back. It's the only way that most medium to small sized schools can actually keep their breeding programs running because that inbreeding coefficient just creeps up so quickly.
[00:12:16] Speaker A: Okay, so, yeah, Sydney, what about on the training side? Is there collaboration on techniques or any of that sort of stuff?
[00:12:25] Speaker C: Yeah, actually, so when I just got back from the NFB and there is a night where kind of all the trainers get together and we kind of all talked about, you know, things. We're seeing the trends we're seeing within our organization with our dogs. And I was noticing that there was a trend between all of the schools, you know, so there is a lot of collaboration, a lot of talk. What's going on?
It's not so much within our, you know, within the trainers here on a daily basis, but it's more as an organization.
So our directors are the ones talking to other schools and seeing what they're dealing with. And then it comes trickles down to the training department. Okay. Other schools are seeing this. What are we seeing? Especially, you know, with the way that Natalie collaborates with other schools, with breeding, we're potentially going to see the same trends right within those schools. So we're making sure that if we are seeing something, it gets back to Natalie so that she can potentially talk to her comrades at the other schools and say, hey, training department's seeing this, you know, what are you guys seeing within your breeding colonies? That it's kind of coming up two years later in these dogs?
[00:13:45] Speaker A: Sure. Well, and I know even as. As handlers or students, we're asked to send in, you know, vet records so that you. That's just a continuous supply of information long term. Right?
[00:13:58] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And it all goes back to the breeding department, to Natalie, so that she can see, you know, okay, we're having some kind of medical thing that's going on with this litter. So then she'll go back and look at her notes and make note of that.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: Yep. Because I. To add on to that, I can say not mostly everything is inherited in some level. Like, it's just how inherited it is. So, like, there are different heritability rates. Like, we know hip dysplasia is a higher heritability rate than maybe inhibition, which is usually when a dog is shutting down from the stress, but we know that for a fact.
So I have to take all the notes and try and make something of it.
Cancers can be inherited. They just don't know how they're being inherited. So they know it's inherited, but they don't know how.
Seizures. So when we've got seizure dogs happening, it's inherited, but how is it inherited? I will say dogs are about ten years behind humans in cancer. So most humans, you can get those genetic testing done now, whereas in dogs right now, you don't have that availability.
But it goes with most of the traits that everything can be inherited, from color to the way that they handle stuff to. We have a dog that I love. She's great. She's got a zipper nose. So that zipper nose that you can see on their nose, that's an inherited trait.
But what we're looking for is stuff that makes a guide dog. So we don't care about a zipper. I mean, it's cute, but it's not a big deal for us, you know? But I can say everything is inherited. It's just how. When are there environmental factors to it as well as inherited factors?
[00:16:08] Speaker A: Sure. Okay, let's see.
All right, so, Sydney, what's the process like to become a trainer? What's you mentioned, you know, apprenticeship. What's that like?
[00:16:22] Speaker C: Yeah. So the apprenticeship has to be open. So when the apprenticeship opens, it's three years long. Okay. Within and from my understanding, it kind of varies within each school, how they want to deal with each of the benchmarks that the apprentice has to hit within those three years. But it's always three years. For me, it was four because I started in January of 2020.
Part of the apprenticeship is to be in class and to work with students. So for my first year, I didn't work with any students, so mine was a little bit longer. But typically it's three years long.
You work with the students, you learn how to be an instructor in class, how to train different temperaments with dogs. You start out with a smaller string of dogs. Typically it's about five to six, and then branch off into potentially eight to ten at some point.
And just continuing to work on different things with different dogs. There's a lot of reading. It's almost like being back in school. There's, like, book reports that you have to do. There's different books that you have to read that relate to whatever you're learning within six months. So between the three years, it's broken up into six months. So every six months, there's a reading, you have to do a paper on it, and there's kind of like a theme. So the beginning is how to basically read a dog's behavior, how to just look at a dog and kind of just get a sense of who they are. So within that six months, that's what you're working on. There's an exam after every six months. So that basically turns out to six exams that you have within those three years.
In the second year, that's when you start learning about the human eye. So it's basically anatomy class all over again.
So learning about the eye, and then you go into learning about different eye diseases and causes of blindness, so that in the end, you understand what your clients are going through, what the varying visibility is, because another misconception is that, you know, the blind community, they're just totally blind. There's nothing there, when in reality, there's a varying degree. Right. Of remaining vision.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: So I always say it's. It's from. Can almost drive a car to nothing. Right.
It's pretty. Pretty broad.
[00:19:01] Speaker C: Blurry, or you get. Or it's like, blurry in one eye and nothing in the other. So, you know, our apprentices learn the different eye diseases, the different causes of blindness, and what our clients are dealing with, you know, with that remaining vision, if they have any, and learning about all of that.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: When. When I got my first dog, I had specific things they required that I work on as far as just. I had more or less just light perception and some shadows. But basically, it was kind of letting go of that when working with the dog, that sort of thing. Right, yeah. Because it would. I see a shadow, and I think, oh, there's something I'm going to run into. And you have to say the dog will stop if there's actually something.
[00:19:47] Speaker C: Exactly, yeah. And our apprentice is, you know, not only are they learning about different visibility levels of our clients, but they're also learning how to travel with those, you know, different visibility. We have these special goggles that we have to learn to travel with that kind of simulates macular degeneration or retinitis pigmentosa. You know, we have these special things, but when we're actually testing the dogs, we have a mindful blindfold. So we're total. So when we train the dogs, we're acting like they're going to somebody that has no remaining vision whatsoever. And so, for a lot of our apprentices, they've never been under blindfold before. So they're also learning how to. To train the dogs with no vision.
[00:20:41] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:20:42] Speaker C: And being comfortable like that because, well, they just. They can't be blindfolded.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I've actually always thought there was something really interesting about that because, you know, growing up, we would go to different events for organizations that work with blind children and things like that. And one of the most common things they would do is they'd say, all right, all the parents you're gonna put a blindfold on and you're gonna eat lunch, right? And at the end of lunch, there's food everywhere. The parents are freaking out, oh, my gosh, how's my kid gonna survive? And you go, well, you did it for half an hour.
[00:21:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:15] Speaker A: And I've always thought there's something really interesting about trainers spending more time under a blindfold that you learn. Oh, well, it's different, but it can be done.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:25] Speaker C: And even within, you know, for our apprentices, they have to spend a certain amount of time under blindfold in class. So for me, I had to spend that first week of class I had. Sunday came just, I was like just any other student coming to GDA for their first guide dog.
I remember Sean came out. One of the other instructors, he came out, told me, all right, put your blindfold on. And from Sunday morning to the following Sunday afternoon, I was under a blindfold. I was doing everything that the students were doing. I was learning the basic route with my cane. I got my dog on dog day on Wednesday, and I was learning to travel with this guide dog. So part of the apprenticeship is to get that experience, get that empathy that you know of what our students are going through. We're putting them out of their element. We're putting them in a building with five other students, six other students, and telling them, all right, you got to learn to trust this four legged animal at your feet, and they're going to get you there safely.
[00:22:36] Speaker A: So it's just, well, and it always seems like in class, one of the biggest ones, especially for new students, is the night route. Right. For some students, that one is. Is really where they learn the meaning of let go and let the dog take over.
[00:22:48] Speaker C: Let go and trust. Yeah.
Yeah, it is. It's nerve wracking, especially for those students that do have a fair amount of residual vision, right? So in some ways, they're able to help their dog, which is great, but when they're, you know, there's those times when they're night blind and they can't have you kind of see. This is how we show students at times that this is, you know, you're doing too much for the dog. Right? You, with your remaining vision, you're actually stopping the dog. You're actually cueing them. And now that we've taken all of that away, your dog has to now relearn. Oh, crap. It's my responsibility to stop for that curb, not dad's, not moms.
[00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I was going to ask on that note, what is harder as an instructor, teaching a seasoned pro and getting rid of bad habits or a new handler.
[00:23:44] Speaker C: I can't say one is harder, easier than the other.
I will say the most difficult thing that I think is having a student who has only had one guide dog previously and then transitioning over to their second guide dog.
That can sometimes be difficult for some students because they don't have multiple dogs to kind of think back on. They only have the one. So especially if in that recency theory. Right. They only remember the very last few years when everything was clicking, everything was good.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: That dog was perfect and always had been.
[00:24:24] Speaker C: No issues, no dog distractions, nothing. But they forget that first six months, that first year when they're calling the instructor, okay, this dog doesn't know anything.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: I almost died twice today.
Right.
[00:24:37] Speaker C: They don't remember those things. They only remember what happened last. And so getting that new guide dog, the second guide dog, that's like, oh, it's so much comparing it. You're not like so and so, you know, so and so was better at this. So in some ways, I feel like getting your second guide dog can be a little bit more of a challenge for some students versus getting your third and fourth with a new client. They. They're most of the time just so excited and, yes, nervous, but there's no expectation. So in some ways, for some students, that's a little bit easier than having just the one to look back on, especially if they were very successful right off the bat.
[00:25:22] Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah. I mean, I know. Like, I've. I'm on my fifth dog now, and people ask all the time, so which one was the best?
[00:25:31] Speaker C: And it's like.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: It's like asking which of five people is the best. They're all just totally different. Totally different.
[00:25:37] Speaker C: Right. Yeah. Each dog is different. Even if you have, you know, you've always had male black labs, they're all going to be different in some way, and they're going to excel in one area, and the others are going to excel in different areas.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Right, right. All right, one last question. Both of you can jump in. I'm sure you both have stories, but I think the best part for anyone who owns a dog is interactions with the public.
I've had everything from someone in the cafeteria, at work yelling at me that my dog was too skinny, that I was killing it.
And I've also been at a restaurant and had somebody walk over and say, you need to move your chair. Cause your dog, its elbow can't move. And of course, you move your chair, and the dog is sound asleep, and it's not paying attention at all.
Either of you have any good stories with either puppies or dogs training with the public that you want to, you.
[00:26:34] Speaker C: Want to share one that I.
It just comes to mind because I share it all the time. But I was in the mall with a dog that I was training, and you know the malls around here, we always go to the same ones, same three malls. So everybody knows us. Pretty much, yeah.
[00:26:56] Speaker A: Anywhere around a guide dog school, everybody knows about it.
[00:27:00] Speaker C: They know our van. They know us. Oh, it's that guy I. Dog school.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: Yeah. The fun. The fun part is crossing into another school's territory and everybody going, so where'd you get your dog? You got him here, right?
Sorry. I'm a traitor. Sorry.
[00:27:15] Speaker C: Like, dog catchers, too, sometimes with our vans. But I was walking in the mall, and, you know, we're just going along, dogs not having any issues, we're just going. And then this one guy stopped me, and he's like, oh, oh, my God. Is your dog okay? And I look down, and I'm like, yeah, they're fine. I thought, okay, maybe they stumbled or they're bleeding. So I'm looking around, I'm like, no, they're fine. Why? And he's like, well, that thing on its back, right? What is that thing?
I'm like, the harness. Oh, he's a guy dug in trace, I'm, like, explaining, and he's like, oh, I thought he had, like, a back injury. And you're, like, holding him up.
[00:27:53] Speaker A: That's really funny. I've gotten that one before.
That is a good one. My. My favorite so far has probably just been the things you hear people whisper to one another as you walk by. The best is always, there goes a blind dog, and I always want to turn around and go, I hope not.
[00:28:11] Speaker C: They always whisper like, you can't hear them because you're blind. You're always deaf, right?
[00:28:15] Speaker A: Always, yeah, 100%.
Oh, gosh. All right. Well, yeah, any good one was. I mean, you've got to hear a lot from puppy raisers.
[00:28:25] Speaker B: Well, I think the one that comes to mind, because it was about. It was. It was actually a dog giving birth, and she wasn't going to plan. Like, she wasn't going by the book, I should say, like, but she wasn't in distress, and it was getting late at night, and I was still here, so I just. We have a mattress, and I had a volunteer who was whelping, and I said, hey, like, I'm going to go blow up the mattress. And I'm going to go sleep in the office and if you need me, let me know. And I changed in my pajamas. And so I'm in like, these purple pajamas, right? And they're like, I look like Barney, basically.
And I closed the door and I went to sleep and I'm like, dead asleep. And I have glasses. Like, I can't see without glasses. And so I took my glasses off and I went to sleep and I heard wham. She opened the door and the door went slam. And she said, we have a problem. And I went, I, like, I guess I, and I don't remember being awake until I was over on the puppy side of the nursery. And it's a good, like 50ft at least. And apparently, like, I, like, shot up off the floor, out of bed and was like, up and running.
And the puppy was breached and it was stuck in the vaginal canal. And I'm in my Barney pajamas with no socks on, in with a mom that's giving birth and I'm helping her pull out a puppy and I can't even see it. Like, I just saw this blob because I don't have my glasses on either.
And the volunteer who was here, she just kind of was like, I've never seen you move so fast.
And I was like, it's 01:00 in the morning and I moved so fast.
[00:30:22] Speaker A: But, you know, well, and you've been there enough that clearly not having the glasses, you still managed to not run into anything on the way.
You know, it well, step on a.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Puppy and I was able to get it out of her and it worked out and the puppy was good.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: And, you know, there we go.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: She, she thought the puppy was, you know, that was a stillborn, but, you know, it came out and it was breathing and going cries.
[00:30:52] Speaker A: Just as eventful as the hospital with people. So.
Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you both so much. This is awesome and so many great stories and people learn a lot. Thank you.
[00:31:07] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:31:08] Speaker A: All right, take care.
[00:31:09] Speaker C: Thanks. See you, Matt.
[00:31:11] Speaker A: See ya.
I certainly hope you enjoyed that conversation. A big thank you to Natalie and Sydney for joining me on the show. If you feel at all inclined, get involved with the guide dog program.
Guide dogs of America certainly has a soft spot in my heart, but there are many other programs doing the same great work. Whether you volunteer on the campus, raise a puppy, or donate funds, they could really use your support. Come back next week for another eye opening conversation.
If you would like to learn more, go to defendingvision.com. and if you enjoyed the show, rate, review and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you find your podcasts. Thanks for listening.
